The Teachers: About the broad topic of Sangha, varying from
The Teachers: the principles of what the term
The Teachers: means, on the one hand.
The Teachers: down to how we actually set them up, run them, improve them on the other, and I'll start with the rarefy theory and then
The Teachers: get pro progressively more realistic.
The Teachers: I'm not going to. I'm going to speak for a couple of minutes. And
The Teachers: the word sangha basically means community. And that's how I'm going to be using the term. Now it doesn't refer in our usage to
The Teachers: the Sangha meaning the monks, although many Buddhist contexts.
The Teachers: That's how it's used. But here it just means the community, but not any old community.
The Teachers: It's community within the framework of
The Teachers: what in Buddhism are called the 3 treasures or the 3 jewels, the Buddha, the Dharma, and Sangha.
The Teachers: The Buddha doesn't refer to the historical Buddha. The Buddha refers to the ideal or the value of being awake
The Teachers: in different Buddhist traditions, understand that in different ways but awakening. and we might understand that as the kind of the the goal of this practice. where this path in a way
The Teachers: starts and ends in a way awakening
The Teachers: the Dharma
The Teachers: means both teachings, the doctrines of Buddhism, but in a more general sense it means the the values and the practices and the
The Teachers: philosophies that we seek to live by.
The Teachers: It's it's a very difficult term to render in English, so we don't bother Buddha Dharma, and then Sangha, the third one has to do with
The Teachers: recognizing how this process of
The Teachers: leading alive ethically
The Teachers: through meditation, through action in the world, through our life
The Teachers: that inclines towards being awake.
The Teachers: Not a solitary
The Teachers: process for most people or for many people, but is one that is nurtured and held within
The Teachers: communities of like-minded friends. and
The Teachers: that doesn't imply any kind of formal religious organisation, although that might be one way in which it's done.
The Teachers: And it also doesn't refer to any particular size. It could be just a group of friends who meets once a month somewhere in a person's flat.
The Teachers: And what, in a way holds Sangha together
The Teachers: is not the number of people who come, but the quality of the relationships, the friendships that they form in the course of their working together to support each other
The Teachers: in this practice of the Dharma that inclines towards awakening.
The Teachers: Historically.
The Teachers: numerous models of Sangha have been tried out from the classical one of monastic communities bound by very strict rules to
The Teachers: what we would find in Japan today, for example, where you'd have A priesthood rather than monks with congregations not dissimilar from how a Christian Church might be run with communities around it, and as we move into our rather more secular world, then the Sangha becomes a much more informal affair. That's much more democratized in terms of how it's organized in terms of who has authority and so forth, and so on.
The Teachers: Winton.
The Teachers: Thank you, Steven.
The Teachers: maybe it'd be helpful if I just sort of outline
The Teachers: how we do things in Sydney, because they're different from elsewhere. Partly.
The Teachers: is it working? Partly
The Teachers: for historical reasons before 2,005.
The Teachers: The Dharma scene, or
The Teachers: people for Westerners as much as it is in many other cities in the West. I guess that there were
The Teachers: Asian transplants that welcomed Westerners. And then there were
The Teachers: Western singers, almost entirely consisting of Westerners, who still had some sort of.
The Teachers: I inherited charismatic authority because they were attached to a lineage like the Mahasi
The Teachers: in the Pasana lineage from Burma in 2,005 there was a a major rupture in Sydney, because 2 institutions that we'd always used
The Teachers: both for weekly meetings and for longer retreats, became unavailable for us.
The Teachers: And that's another story. But the point was that we had to fairly quickly put together
an organization that could
The Teachers: to could replace what we'd lost in terms of
being able to bring out
The Teachers: overseas teachers being able to organise retreats that had sufficient quantum mass to get things done, and that organization was set up
The Teachers: in 2,005, and at Sydney insight meditators
your host
The Teachers: this week.
The Teachers: So it's still going strong, and that is an umbrella organization for the Sydney Sanger's.
The Teachers: and indeed some outside Sydney that are now functioning. Now, some of those are simply lay sangers.
and and they're quite eclectic about who they teachers that that come and give teachings to them.
The Teachers: When we set up Kookaburra Sanger, the one I'm in. It was a bit different because it was set up.
Partly in a very, in the most
The Teachers: trendy part of Sydney. So very nice people join. And and it was. And it said on our page, on the same website that we were interested in exploring secular Buddhism. As far as I know, this is the only kind of where the only saying go
The Teachers: in the country, if not the galaxy that
The Teachers: we're not okay. I'm glad to hear we're not alone anymore. That that. So we're actually saying this is, we. We want to pursue this this particular
The Teachers: line of development. And we also made an interesting decision that we would not have outside teachers. So in other words, this anger is the teacher.
The Teachers: and and so it it makes demands on its members that you know, when we, we, we organize
The Teachers: a series of discussions around particular aspects of Dharma and people are invited, and sometimes
The Teachers: leaned on to to
The Teachers: to to make a presentation on that subject which can then kick off a discussion in the in the wider group.
The Teachers: And so, and since the pandemic
The Teachers: like during the pandemic, we met online only since
The Teachers: the pandemic we've met alternately. On each each week, online, or or in face to face.
The Teachers: So this is, I guess this is a rather odd model, no teachers where it's self-teaching
and
The Teachers: and and it seems to work really well, it's it's a
The Teachers: it. It's certainly one of one of the best, if not the best, experience
The Teachers: of the experiences I've had
The Teachers: of of
The Teachers: Buddhist communities and and singers.
The Teachers: Okay.
The Teachers: I initially used to attend to blue gum sanga, which is also prior to the Sanga that Winton's just described. That that was where you used to go as well, wasn't it? Before kookaburra and after a couple of years of sort of going there on and off. I was. It was actually feeling bad about the
The Teachers: the emissions driving from the northern beaches to to Blue Gumsanga all the time that I thought, gee! I wonder if
The Teachers: wonder if there's enough interest to have a Sanger on the northern beaches, and so I distinctly remember asking Winton, with a little bit of trepidation, because I didn't kind of know what the go was at the time I thought maybe it might be seen as
The Teachers: setting up competition. So I sort of quietly asked Winton. What do you think? And he's like absolutely fantastic idea. We've had people from Northern Beecher years saying that I'd love to have a saint brought there.
The Teachers: So
The Teachers: I want to tell this story, because there might be people here who could set up a spanger themselves. And I want to encourage you to do that if if it'd be helpful so for the first. So that was 15 years ago.
The Teachers: 2,009
The Teachers: and one of the advantages of being in a big city is that there are people like Quinton and and others who were, you know, experienced Duma practitioners and teachers, and for the first 7 years or so of of beaches Sanga's life.
The Teachers: Went and came on a monthly basis and and gave a talk. and for the first be pretty close to the first 10 years of its life we had a model where we had
The Teachers: speakers every week.
The Teachers: Which was pretty much just following the format of blue gum sanga, that's what they did. by by, about the end of the tenth year.
The Teachers: I was. I was getting pretty tired of that
The Teachers: model because it was a little bit of a revolving door
The Teachers: thing. you know, in our effort to be open to newcomers. We had a lot of
The Teachers: you know people who would come once or twice, and then you'd see them again, you know, a few months later. And what have you? But there was no continuity.
The Teachers: And so we faced this issue of different needs in in the group that you know, there's the needs of beginners. There's the needs of people who might have been doing Dharma for a little while, and then my personal needs were what I would really have loved
The Teachers: as the person key person organising. It was probably a lot more like what winter just described in Kookaburra, where they have the the good fortune of having a lot of really experienced dumber practitioners in in their Sangha. So they don't even really need a teacher.
The Teachers: it's quite different with the Sangha that
The Teachers: we have on the northern beaches, Beachesanga, because
The Teachers: we didn't have that deep. You know the bench strength, if you like the deep experience
in the group.
The Teachers: So anyway, And maybe this is a nice segue to sort of that, talking about what might what might be helpful.
The Teachers: For people with regard to Sangha is that we've
The Teachers: we've changed each year we have a conversation at the end of the year. Has it gone? Is it meeting people's needs? Do we want to continue? I mean, every year at the end of the year. I think it's entirely possible that something might not arise again next year
The Teachers: completely depends on the people in the group.
The Teachers: And you know I mean it's continued to arise for 15 years now. But I remember a talk Winton once gave on Sangha.
The Teachers: where he encouraged us to not think about Sangha as a service.
The Teachers: Not think of it, as you know. I'm a customer, and it's there to to, you know. Meet my needs.
But to.
The Teachers: you know. In fact, I remember you said, don't think of it like the you know.
The Teachers: x 79 bus going past your door that you know you can get on it or not. Get on in it, and it will still just keep providing the service whether you're there or not.
The Teachers: Sangha is an arising because there are people
The Teachers: committed to making it happen. and
so
The Teachers: mean. I could probably share a number of insights I've gathered over the years of
The Teachers: how to keep it arising. But a core one would would be the people who are
The Teachers: putting in the time and commitment to make it happen. It's got to meet their needs first and foremost, and otherwise it just doesn't happen. It will disintegrate.
The Teachers: So for each group.
The Teachers: the more that you can.
The Teachers: It doesn't sang. It doesn't have to be a cookie cutter thing. It it can be you know, teachers coming in talking. It can be no teachers and just the group themselves discussing things it can be we do have a book to study which and there are some fantastic resource that these 2 have put together to help with that. There's lots of resources and things we can talk about. But,
The Teachers: I would emphasize that. It's
The Teachers: it's a creation of the group for the group.
The Teachers: and needs to be meeting the needs of people
The Teachers: that make it happen first and foremost.
The Teachers: and that may change over time. You know the the we now have quite a different model to what we had. We only meet fortnightly.
The Teachers: we Those who at the end of the previous year. Say, yes, I'm committed to keeping, you know, participating. Next year we all pitch in money to cover the rent for the hall. We rent a council hall.
The Teachers: and we cover the cost of that for the whole year, like we all just pitch in, and that's done with. We don't have to worry about. Oh, you know we're not. Don't have enough people this week to, you know. Give month, rent, or whatever.
The Teachers: and it's a pretty stable group that comes every week, which is fantastic because it means that there's continuity and
The Teachers: deepening of
The Teachers: understanding and relationship among the group.
The Teachers: At least the group that comes regularly.
The Teachers: And so it's morphed. And so I guess I just share that with you. To say it's a it's an alive and dynamic thing. It needs to be
The Teachers: but it also requires commitment. It won't happen without people having that commitment to make it happen to come to participate, and, like all
The Teachers: human endeavors.
The Teachers: If there are problems, or if you know, people are unhappy with something
The Teachers: to talk about it, to deal with it. to make that part of your dharma. Practice is, as a group to, you know. deal with, deal with whatever issues are coming up.
The Teachers: There is an element of it that
The Teachers: if the group is, you know, the group will be
The Teachers: what it will be, and that won't suit everyone.
The Teachers: So that's okay.
The Teachers: they can go. And you know, people who don't like the way one Sangha operates can, you know, find another one?
The Teachers: But essentially, it won't happen unless it's meeting the needs of the people who are making that Sangha
The Teachers: happen on a whether it's a weekly or fortnightly or monthly basis so important to have the conversation about. What do we want from Sangha?
The Teachers: How do we make that happen? And build in some structures for making that an ongoing and dynamic conversation between the people who
The Teachers: comprise the Sangha.
The Teachers: So yeah, it's not a. It's not a set thing, and it's something that if you were interested in, if you don't have one, and you're interested in creating one. There's no set way. There's no cookie cutter it's about, you know. Find a group
The Teachers: articulate what it is you'd like to get from that group, and then how you might make that happen. And and I'd recommend building in some self reflective processes to
The Teachers: be able to discuss it and deal with it. If things are changing or
The Teachers: going off track, or there are problems as well.
The Teachers: I wonder if we should also mention the possibility of virtual songs, in other words, not necessarily warm bodies meeting in the same room at a particular location every 2 weeks. But people who come together.
The Teachers: for example, like on a course like this, who have shared interests and want to keep the conversation going. They'll meet up on Zoom, and this is again. One of the
The Teachers: things we learned during the Covid lockdown is that in the organization I'm involved with Bodie College. we ran our courses online.
The Teachers: and as a result, people were no longer could participate, no matter where they lived.
The Teachers: And this meant
The Teachers: through the breakout groups and interchanges that communities began to form.
The Teachers: not based on physical location at all
The Teachers: that has its pluses and minuses. Obviously, it's not as intimate. You don't have that immediate, direct human interaction. But, on the other hand, it's
The Teachers: considerable improvement, having no interaction at all.
The Teachers: And, for example, the group that's meeting here with us now in Brisbane. They formed during one of these courses a couple of years ago, and it's extraordinary how
The Teachers: that those sorts of communities can sustain themselves, because you have the obvious advantage
The Teachers: to go to your Sangha meeting. You just have to switch on your computer.
The Teachers: You don't have to go anywhere or anything like that. And so that's I think, an option that's emerging
The Teachers: in our current world. It also, of course, means you're not polluting the atmosphere by driving a car all that stuff.
The Teachers: So that would be another option that
The Teachers: some of us might be interested in pursuing, too.
The Teachers: and if I could add to that
The Teachers: in the spirit of both, and which I've been banging on a lot about this week. Is that there are hybrid sunders to Kookaburra. You guys have both people who come in person and there's the option to come online.
The Teachers: It alternates. Okay?
The Teachers: So you have a hybrid one week and a non hybrid to next. Okay? Same with
The Teachers: blue gum blue gum, does it? As well. Yeah. And I mean, I think beaches would be open to doing that. We haven't really discussed it. But I suspect if there were people who wanted to
The Teachers: join in on our conversations there, there'd likely be an openness to that as well. Yeah. So there's lots of ways to do it.
The Teachers: Microphone microphone.
The Teachers: Okay, Tim. Here.
The Teachers: third lessons. Most of what you've been saying is what Asanga is. Okay.
The Teachers: I want to hear, how do you get the people there?
The Teachers: What we
The Teachers: advertisement?
The Teachers: signs out front, but some some how. How does the mechanism of getting yourself?
The Teachers: No one in the community happened. Yeah? Well, maybe I'll answer that first, and then the others can have a go. It's an interesting question for the singer that I attend, because
The Teachers: well, initially.
there were a bunch of people from Blue Gumsanga which at the time was quite big.
The Teachers: There were a bunch of people who had been going there who live on the northern beaches. And so they came and started sitting and and meeting with us instead. So there was a bit of a
The Teachers: pre existing. So you stole his people? Yes, and we stole some of the flock. So so that that was sort of how it started. It's an interesting question. And this is one of the questions we need to grapple with when we're running asanga is
The Teachers: how big or
The Teachers: how much of an open or closed kind of group. How big do we want it to be when we first started.
The Teachers: and for a lot of beaches Sunga's history, the meetings might have as few as 3 or 4 people turn up.
The Teachers: and in some ways, especially in the early days, I kind of thought
The Teachers: is this, you know, is this working? That's a few people. And then, as the years went on, people, I heard numerous people say that something they liked about beaches. Sangha was that it was small, and some people would go to blue gums, which was much more big, and you know.
The Teachers: successful if you defined it in terms of numbers, and they felt a bit daunted about speaking up, because not only were there a lot of people, but there were a lot of experienced and knowledgeable, knowledgeable people.
The Teachers: So if I was new and I didn't feel like I knew a lot about it, I might feel a bit backwards and coming forwards.
The Teachers: One of our Sanga members. We we've talked about this issue because we've only yeah, we have about maybe 8 people who come regularly now, and another 5 who
The Teachers: who come sometimes. And
The Teachers: one of our members says.
The Teachers: Beaches singer is the world's best kept secret. We have a website, and that's generally how people find us. They Google, Meditation, Northern beaches, or
The Teachers: you know, Buddhism, Northern Beaches, or what have you?
The Teachers: But we don't do any promotion. And from my selfish point of view, I'm kind of reluctant to promote it, because once it starts getting bigger.
The Teachers: Yeah, I already kind of end up playing the role of teacher, which
The Teachers: for my own selfish personal needs, I'd probably prefer a model where I wasn't and where there were, you know, was more
The Teachers: self-driven and self-managed, and there were more experienced practitioners
The Teachers: taking the lead. But it just so happens that the group was quite new to the dharma when when we changed this model. And so I had to sort of
The Teachers: play that role.
The Teachers: But you know, wait. Does that role have to be? Does there someone have to be in that role
The Teachers: with starting. I wouldn't say you do. I mean anyone could have a conversation, and with whatever knowledge of the dharma we have, and with whatever dummer practice we have from my perspective, there can be benefit in in that conversation. And even just.
The Teachers: I find. So these days I find Sanga, primarily nourishing
The Teachers: from being with other people who are on this path of trying to live.
The Teachers: you know, courageous and aware and
The Teachers: caring way in the world. So it's it's it's actually being with
The Teachers: my songa, which is what I get out of it these days.
The Teachers: You would be an excellent politician. That was a yes or no? Answer.
The Teachers: Yeah. So the issue of growing is an issue for the Sangha.
The Teachers: That, I guess, is what I'm saying, and you need to kind of work that out yourself. We've got dye online, and then we've got John.
DiPelletier: I'm Di, and I'm the manager of Blue Gong Sanga for my scenes. as you know now how old we are. We're one of the older sangers.
DiPelletier: We lost certain people over to Kookaburra when they opened, and we felt that loss extremely.
DiPelletier: but they have returned to us as teachers often time as well.
DiPelletier: So we run I'll shorten this up a bit. We run on a hybrid model. We meet every Monday night
DiPelletier: alternating between zoom and in-house.
DiPelletier: This gives us the opportunities to draw in some very fine speakers. With great donna experience from outside of Sydney, and that's quite valued, and often there'll be a series of 2 or 3 deeper.
DiPelletier: meaningful presentations. We are fortunate. We have a very, very nice
DiPelletier: stable venue.
DiPelletier: and we have one in House Dharma, teacher in the form of Jonathan Page, whom is well known to the senior folks here have been around as long as they have
DiPelletier: the kookaburra people set come over when requested.
DiPelletier: I was devastated when Winton retired, but no amount of arm twisting could get him to change that. But good to see him here for the finale.
DiPelletier: We have vote 24 on a list. and they get the occasional email from me, relevant things, handouts, etc. And we have a core group of about 8.
DiPelletier: And some of the core group is now moving forward with their development to do their own presentations and and lead an evening.
DiPelletier: We have occasional evenings of discussion. just discussion about some particular topic. but mostly were that eclectic speakers that was referred to.
and
DiPelletier: technically we started out as a Passana. But we are open to all all comers, and there's several people here who have taught at Blue Gomes. You can hear from the presentation
DiPelletier: and we have a web site and the key thing.
DiPelletier: In addition to having our own teacher when needed, is Jonathan and having a great venue.
DiPelletier: we have a website, and sitting with you in that room is the guy that keeps my
DiPelletier: website schedule up to date and corrects me when I'm wrong. And that's Guy. So we have to put a thank you out to him from blue gum. And from that website we can gather
DiPelletier: people who
DiPelletier: find us there. They may have some diamond experience. They may have no
DiPelletier: meditation experience.
DiPelletier: They are invited to come along zoom or in house. and we try to make them feel welcome. Try to guide them if they have no experience. Just to get through a sit.
DiPelletier: We're pretty welcoming, and we have pretty nice refreshments. And back to the core group of 8 or 9 that are starting to take up a little bit of the leading discussions
DiPelletier: we've we've talked to them, and they are very happy as the little core group. They feel very nourished by the saying which is heartening for me, because it's quite an effort, as Lenore has said, to keep it going?
DiPelletier: I'm puzzled about the other ones on our list.
DiPelletier: That don't attend at all.
DiPelletier: I've asked them a bit about, you know something they would like, and I should probably put more effort into that. They don't want to be taken off list. They absolutely refuse that
DiPelletier: and they keep occasionally some of them will turn up
DiPelletier: if you just popped in from the web, and, you know, spent 1 one meeting or 2 meetings with us.
DiPelletier: You don't end up on the on the list, you know, after you've been there a few times, or communicating with this in house.
DiPelletier: Then I asked them if they'd like to be on the list. That's how it has grown.
DiPelletier: But there's been people there. And some 2 of our people are on the in-house. No one's in house with you up there, and one's online and they may have comments. But
DiPelletier: I'm open to questions. That's really the essence of blue gum at the moment.
The Teachers: Thank thank you very much.
The Teachers: Oh.
The Teachers: ready to go right? Just a practical question. Probably you might be able to help us with Winton, and considering setting one up
The Teachers: things like
The Teachers: day of the week. So you have weekly meetings. Is there a day that settled? That works best for people. What time?
The Teachers: How long do you meet for is there a standard format? And lastly, what sort of
The Teachers: profile of participants have you been able to attract
The Teachers: male female, younger, older. non-english speaking background, etc.
Yes.
The Teachers: I'll just try and remember the list. Yeah, we we we meet on a Monday like blue gum does we meet once a week.
The idea is to get there at 7. We start sitting at 7 15.
The Teachers: Sit for 30 min. There's a
The Teachers: 10 min tea break, which sometimes becomes a bit longer and then there's a presentation, and
The Teachers: a discussion goes on. And the way we've organized it now is basically
The Teachers: that that the initial contribution way of introducing a discussion will go on on a zoom night.
The Teachers: and then we can discuss it more fully on a face-to-face night.
The Teachers: and I think that
The Teachers: As far as meetings are concerned, every other sangrove had anything to do with seems to work on basically the same format.
The Teachers: There's begin with sit. And then there's a
The Teachers: tea break
The Teachers: in a bit of
The Teachers: face device contact, and then there'll be a discussion and end up at 90'clock. 9, 15, something like that, as far as the day of the week is concerned.
The Teachers: you, you really gotta feel it out. I think you know depending on who's there. And you know, if they absolutely make watch full corners on a Monday night, or if they absolutely gotta watch one of the
The Teachers: shows on Wednesday, not in the ABC. W. Watches commercial television, of course. But the, but it depends on what other people, what other things people have on. But Thursday and Monday seem to be
The Teachers: pretty popular days, you know, when people aren't otherwise engaged.
The Teachers: Was there another question. The the another issue?
The Teachers: Oh, profiles.
The Teachers: people under 80 are welcome. We? Yeah, it's the
The Teachers: the profit. I mean, I yeah, I have to admit that. There are not many people who are under middle age
The Teachers: not many some so
The Teachers: all I can say is that the rest of us are young at heart, and so I think that's general in in. Most saying is that I've had anything to do with, and I've got a theory about that middle age. You hit the wall in some way or another, and then you're interested in suffering, and you
The Teachers: and you gravitate towards a Buddhist group. But but it's hard to get the young folks in.
Because
The Teachers: so just another cause, we're a little bit different. We're probably
The Teachers: 50 50 gender
The Teachers: of the group that there's probably maybe 6 of us who are pretty reliably there.
The Teachers: It's probably actually it's probably 2 female for male
The Teachers: where I don't think we have any
The Teachers: over the age of about
The Teachers: mid-sixties. So we're probably we're more very sort of
The Teachers: thirties and forties and fifties. No one member who sort of comes and goes a little bit, who in their twenties. But the the core group that sort of turns up every week. And this is a blessing because they're in child rearing, you know, parenting smack, bang in the middle of that. So sometimes.
The Teachers: you know, getting there is hard.
The Teachers: we do. Thursday nights.
The Teachers: 7 until 9 30. Very similar format.
The Teachers: Meditate cup of tea. Sometimes cup of tea sort of. We just take it in and we start talking. We'll often have a where, as I think, I mentioned before. We're currently going through my book as a stimulus for discussion. But we've got a couple of others sort of ready and waiting after we finish that. So all of these decisions?
The Teachers: Again, I go back to the people who are committed to coming.
The Teachers: Make these decisions, you know for yourselves. When to meet.
The Teachers: how to meet, where to meet, what? What to do when you meet.
The Teachers: as long as it's valuable, and it's helping support your
The Teachers: practice. And and I would just say, as long as it's
The Teachers: you know, nurturing your
The Teachers: for me, sanger really nurtures my energy
The Teachers: for for Duma.
The Teachers: it's a nurturing. We're generating things.
The Teachers: So I thank you. at Vivian. This is Andy from Kookaburra. Vivian Langford, who's up on the screen, actually invited
The Teachers: me a few weeks ago to come to Golden Wattlesanger. Thank you, Vivian. And What I found really valuable about
The Teachers: talk going to Golden Model to speak. I'm not a Dharma teacher at all, and Vivian knew that. It was really to reflect about what made
The Teachers: what we felt. Kookaburra was why, why it was working for us.
The Teachers: and
The Teachers: it was good to be asked. Thank you, Vivian, because it really made me do some deep reflection about what worked what was still a challenge And so I just want to offer a couple of things. I'll try and be as brief as possible. But a couple of things have come up just even discussion today. But over the last week.
The Teachers: over lunch about teachers. And
The Teachers: I now understand the meaning of the comment that we heard a week at Martine's workshop that we're a closed sanger. We're not a closed sanger at all, but we don't, as Winton said, have outside teachers.
The Teachers: and we actually only have 2 experienced Dharma teachers, Darwin and Winton, in our Sanger.
The Teachers: and I remember the meetings we had, one of which was in our light lounge room. One, I think, was in Gowan's when we were first setting it up. and there are a few non-negotiables.
The Teachers: One was that we would not have one teacher at all.
The Teachers: and you could be a teacher. This is 1 point of slight, I suppose a question I'll pose.
The Teachers: Lenore is, you can actually be a teacher from where you are.
The Teachers: and what is so rich and wonderful about the teachings we hear every week.
The Teachers: that people will bring.
The Teachers: We have a session called the dharma of of what we do
The Teachers: that sort of rotates randomly. And that's where people will may be coming to the dharma fairly recently, but they understand enough about the 4 tasks and the eightfold path, and
The Teachers: so forth, to to bring an understanding of that to an element of their life.
The Teachers: and that session can be long or short. But some examples.
The Teachers: Somebody who's passionate about gardening.
The Teachers: Maureen. She's quite, quite quiet a lot of the time.
The Teachers: but she gave the most exquisite.
The Teachers: deeply reflective
The Teachers: empowering, touching
The Teachers: talk about the dharma of gardening.
The Teachers: and how she walks around her garden every morning and and talks to the plants and watches them grow, and and so forth. And other people have talked about the dharma of cooking or the dharma of music. If they're musicians. We've had a couple from Tiberio about the dharma of
The Teachers: AI or ethical AI it's just fantastic, because
The Teachers: the rest of the community just
The Teachers: get right into that life of theirs, and where the dharma speaks to that
The Teachers: but we also have very, very lay people who say, you know what I've this happened. I won't. I won't name the person in the room that said this, that you know I've I've been sort of.
The Teachers: I've got this sort of
The Teachers: still bit of a challenge around the so and I remember I was zooming at the time, and I said, Oh, well, ex you. You looks like you'll be filling our vacant slot next week to talk about the vetness. And that person said, Yeah, alright. I'll give it a crack now they can either go off on their own and do some meeting and bring their own perspective, or they might ask somebody more experienced. I know that Winton sometimes being called on, they've said, Look, I'd love to talk about.
The Teachers: not self. But I really need a bit of a goal post, and Wynton said, sure. Take me for a coffee, and we'll go and chat, and then that person will bring their perspective. Likewise we've had people say, look, I'm a bit nervous. I'd like to talk about the dharma of retirement. But is there anybody else in the room who wants to share that talk with me? And then they'll tag team. They'll tag team
The Teachers: a presentation. So there's a few things about
The Teachers: about the not the not teacher
The Teachers: that
The Teachers: has been incredibly empowering for everyone as a group.
The Teachers: One is, we don't have a teacher at the front.
The Teachers: and people sitting in front of them. We always sit in a circle always. We all face each other.
The Teachers: meditate together. And then whoever's teaching that night, and then, and also we don't talk about a teacher. Whoever's built facilitating the discussion that night
The Teachers: is has the bill, and they'll
The Teachers: facilitate. They'll give a little talk.
The Teachers: and then we have questions, and the discussion is often really, really rich.
The Teachers: The second thing it it does is that people don't feel
The Teachers: intimidated.
The Teachers: They don't, you know. We we have to constantly remind people to not feel scared. but to say, Hey, just bring where you are. Bring a question if you like.
The Teachers: Bring bring your question. Do a bit of research if you wouldn't mind, but it doesn't. You don't have to become an expert.
The Teachers: and people don't feel intimidated to speak. Then nobody's nobody's rubbished and ridiculed
The Teachers: everybody's respected and heard.
The Teachers: and for us. I mean, we we started 6 years ago. At the beginning. We had about 10 people coming regularly. After a few years. We were averaging averaging 11. We'd have as many as 22 in the room sometimes
The Teachers: and as as few as 4.
The Teachers: But then Covid hit.
The Teachers: and everybody said, Oh, we've got such a good vibe face to face. We can't do it, we can't do it. We're not going on line.
The Teachers: And then, after a couple of weeks. Peter said to me, Hey, you know.
The Teachers: do you think would you mind hosting zoom sessions? So we we started zoom sessions, and II remember thinking, Oh, well, probably only get a couple of people. But our Sanga group insights.
The Teachers: During Covid we were averaging about 21 people averaging like multiple pages on the Zoom screen. and most people would speak. Most people had a go.
The Teachers: Now the numbers have dropped off a little bit more, but we've had to keep the hybrid, the the the hybrid, flipping model. Because we've got valuable and loved Sanga members, John from Lismore and Anne from Anne, for from Canberra, from example, who
The Teachers: they can't come to Sydney, let alone inner West Sydney. But we could not lose the people that have become part of our singer.
The Teachers: So that's been amazing. The final thing I'll say, and then I shut up is to answer your your question, Tim. We don't advertise, either. We don't have a website, but we have a one page flyer, and we're listed with SIM.
The Teachers: So what one page runner
The Teachers: I'm I'm about to. I'm about to tell you so people will see the Co. The Kookaburra email address. They'll email, the Kookaburra email address. And it used to be just Peter. But there's a few of us now who run it together as a
The Teachers: not even a committee. We just all share tasks, but there is like a gatekeeper, if you like. That's a terrible term, but just somebody who who takes the emails and communicates with somebody, and they send them that one pager and says, Look, you're very welcome. But perhaps you might just want to read this first. Make sure you're good with it.
The Teachers: And what usually happens at that point is, people will quite often. you know, I might. I think I'm representing this correctly, Peter. People people will often say, Oh, I was really looking for a meditation group. I wanted to learn how to meditate.
The Teachers: Now we do sit for half an hour, but it's not learn how to meditate.
The Teachers: and it talks a little bit about our
The Teachers: generally more secular approach. But it's. It's just basically saying, this is, this is the principles that we're we generally come from. We're not exclusive, exclusionary, but it's just a one pager. By the by the time people have read that they go. Yeah, that sounds like me or not.
The Teachers: and then they will or won't
The Teachers: come along. So that's and we haven't really had to advertise. I mean, there's probably a lot of people out there who'd be interested to join. But
The Teachers: we're not dwindling in numbers. Yeah. they yep got it?
The Teachers: Well, I'll answer that question, but also just
The Teachers: indicate how inclusive we are
The Teachers: when a request comes in for more information.
The Teachers: I send that out to whoever
The Teachers: and at the same time inform them they are a member of the Kukubara group.
The Teachers: Then
The Teachers: they get a little automated email response from our bot that tells them that they remember, but says at any time you can self unsubscribe.
The Teachers: So then they read their one page up and go. This is for me
The Teachers: I'm in. I'll give it a go.
The Teachers: They might read that one page and say, No, I'm not.
The Teachers: I'm self unsubscribing. so the vetting is really
The Teachers: pretty inclusive. We just base it on our one pager. This is our baseline.
The Teachers: and then you're away or not, they on on the same website. They're given on the same website, Sydney, inside
The Teachers: what was sideline?
The Teachers: Yeah, it'll show the the different sungers, Northern beaches or gold gold model.
The Teachers: And it'll give a location where they are. So if people are so eating in a city.
The Teachers: but also I'll look through and go. Oh, that's an inner city one.
The Teachers: That's the Kookaburra Sango. So then the Kookaburra address is given.
The Teachers: and that and that comes to
The Teachers: to a group of us, to me, and I handle all the to a correspondence at that level and send out the one pager.
The Teachers: Could I just respond to the issue of the teacher thing? Because I think it's important?
The Teachers: I agree with almost everything. That Andy just said and describes, even though I said, I'm a teacher there. That's exactly what we do. We sit in a circle.
The Teachers: I don't do all the talking by any means. But
The Teachers: when you've got a group, and I'm saying this because there might be groups like this that are thinking of forming from here
The Teachers: that it is different. If in the group there are not experienced practitioners.
The Teachers: because you do. I have actually tried exactly what you said of having people in the group talk and
The Teachers: there's a
The Teachers: it's all well and good. But if you've got beginners or people who are not confident in their knowledge.
The Teachers: They will be, they will say to you, I'm not sure if this is right, but
The Teachers: or I don't know what the dharma says about this, or
The Teachers: they will, they will want to. Some people come there to burn the Duma. So yes, you can have fantastic discussions.
The Teachers: but if you've got a group of beginners, and so this really depends on the group that you've got.
The Teachers: there are some people who will be wanting. They'll come to the group wanting to
The Teachers: learn. Learn from more than just a book
The Teachers: about what the Duma says about something.
The Teachers: So I that's where I think, absolutely agree with you in terms of the. you know, being participatory and not setting it up with a teacher out the front and everybody else in, you know, everywhere else, it's it's a really good model to have. And now our saying is, you know, extremely participatory when it comes to conversation.
The Teachers: but it just they can. I anticipate that if there was a group of people here who are thinking, oh, maybe I'll set it up, and then they they meet with each other, and then they all realize they're all
The Teachers: kind of just starting out in their, you know, exploration of the dharma, and they don't feel confident in that.
The Teachers: Then there may be the issue of well.
The Teachers: who can we turn to to help us
The Teachers: and teach us? And the 3 of us were talking about this the other day and saying with Zoom, and what have you? You know? Even if you're not here, there are potentially people. If you wanted some yeah, actual dharma teaching input
The Teachers: there are potentially people who could join in remotely as well.
The Teachers: So it depends on the group you've got.
The Teachers: Okay. I'm both aware of the time, and I will be brief. I'm just like to offer a slightly different model of Sanger.
which is a one we hold at my place, and have been holding for about 8 years.
The Teachers: In fact, Kate, James, and Di are quite regular attendance. The in this particular Sanger people come for dinner.
The Teachers: They bring a plate, we share a dinner for an hour, and then we sit for 45 min, and then there's a an open conversation
The Teachers: which always begins with a check in people. Say, How was your other? Your meditation, or your week?
The Teachers: And from that arises a topic of the Dharma as is being lived. We do not have talks, we do not explore
The Teachers: any of the suitors or anything like that. It's more. What is the lived experience? People would, you know. Sometimes the theme arises that someone has been death in someone's life. And now someone, everyone's like reflecting on what what's that is? That topic has meant for them, and mostly are encouraged to share from personal experience.
The Teachers: And we find, whenever it's like that, people feel very connected. And it's very much a friendship kind of circle, you could say. And then after that we ring the bell and the conversations finish, and we have more tea and cake, and so it goes on from sometime from 60'clock to 10 Pm.
The Teachers: People, of course, can leave anytime. They want. Some people come just for the meditation and and open inquiry, some people come for the dinner, and the whole the whole thing just a a different model. It only started with just 4 of us who have been on a retreat together, we said, Oh, after the treat, why don't we meet together?
The Teachers: And the only entrance to be part of this group is, you have to have done a retreat.
The Teachers: We only accept people who have done a retreat before, and our group has. Yeah, it's been very
The Teachers: people. Come and go on life circumstance. But it continues on 8 years later. But we do it once a month only.
The Teachers: Okay, it's a different model. It's also very easy model to start. And it's very much about friendship and connection.
The Teachers: It almost feels like we're witnessing each other's lives and and development
The Teachers: as people go through the various losses and gains in life.
The Teachers: Thank you. Do you have a name?
The Teachers: It's not a name, and it's not public, and it's not on the SIM one of the same, saying, it's it's purely a a saying that's really on on the side.
The Teachers: Okay.
The Teachers: no name. Actually sorry. It has got a name it's called sang sang
The Teachers: Anna. And then online.
The Teachers: Margaret, I think everybody wants to go East Coast. Yeah, we're used to it. The rolling stones flew right from Melbourne. So
The Teachers: yeah, I'm aware of the time. And the
The Teachers: is half a dozen people from our group up there. 5 people.
The Teachers: we've been going for about 25 years, and I there isn't time to tell all the models that we've been through. We've we've done what Alan's done. We've done. You've done, etcetera. So I don't wanna kind of spend too much time talking about the different models. But we've kind of gone through them all in 25 years.
The Teachers: we've got a committee. It's Dharma in daily life. We have cohorts. I mean, basically, there's 2 motherships, Adelaide in Goa after
The Teachers: after Covid, the Adelaide one shutdown, but we still have little satellite groups. Who that appear run we used to. It used to be 7, I think. Now it's down to about 4
The Teachers: and they run themselves in various ways, some with meals, some not and we get new ones. We can get new ones, every retreat a new one just started a few weeks ago.
The Teachers: I think it's easier just to say if you've got any questions about how to to do this like, I say, we've just done them all.
The Teachers: What's worked is doing. The wall, I think now is very different to when I started it in the late Ninetys. I think
The Teachers: every time we have a retreat there's nothing like a retreat, or even a guest. Speaker to your town like go is a very small town.
The Teachers: you know that a retreat always brings new enthusiasm. So get them to join a group. Even if it's online. We've got an online group every morning except for Fridays, which a lot of people here belong to.
The Teachers: It's every morning for 45 min.
The Teachers: Anyway, like, I say we've got all gone through the whole deal and
The Teachers: So if anyone's got any questions, just come and ask me, I guess, is the best one. But I also just want to say that extinction rebellion is a Dharma group for me.
The Teachers: They're very active that they're really based on care.
The Teachers: Nobody works alone. Everybody works from small picture to big picture to small picture. There's education. There's we take all people. It's really a dama group for me. So
The Teachers: I don't know what it's like in other States, but very thoughtful deep thinkers. We have a minute silence before every meeting. I just wanna see to recommend something like Xr as a Demo group. But just come and ask me if you've got any questions.
The Teachers: I'm aware that it is actually now already into the
The Teachers: meditation, and I think we do need to honor that.
The Teachers: I hope this meeting has been fruitful. It's been extremely interesting just hearing the variety of
The Teachers: options on the table.
The Teachers: and if you are interested in, you know, being joining any of these groups, then why not just contact? The various speakers have spoken and take the conversation from there.
The Teachers: I guess that's probably where we need to draw a line. Yes, go on
The Teachers: state
The Teachers: to the album contact.
In fact, we're circulating very easy. right.
madam.
The Teachers: or a lot of them a lot.
Yeah.
The Teachers: Oh, sorry.
The Teachers: I'm sorry. Just a suggestion that people who have a sanger who feel that they could
The Teachers: take on or host. Some people who wanted to join could just put their details down on a notice, or in some way, and it could be circulated to people who have been here on this retreat, and then the connection is easily made
The Teachers: and that would be circulated. We get the information, then email it out after the retreat. Yeah, after the retreat. And then if someone wants to know more about
The Teachers: actually did, they'd have a phone number. They could ring. Okay, I think, what? Basically, anyone who has anything to do anything to say around Sangha, please email it to the Dharma address. That's we've all got. We've all been emailed with that and I will compile that, probably after the retreat and circulate it.
The Teachers: Thank you. Thank you. Hmm.